By Abbey Wheeler
Fatima Payman is one of twelve senators representing Western Australia in the federal parliament. Elected in 2022 as a member of the Labor Party, Payman made international headlines when she crossed the floor in June 2024 in support of a Greens motion recognising Palestinian statehood. She has since resigned from the Labor Party, electing to serve as an independent senator on the crossbench. In October, she announced the creation of a new political party, Australia’s Voice.
Pelican spoke with Senator Payman on Thursday about all things politics, Palestine, and Pirates of the Caribbean.
What’s your experience been like in parliament since becoming an independent? How has your work changed?
It’s a lot more intentional, it requires a lot of conscious thinking and decision-making. I have the freedom to be able to completely, and without any barriers, represent my constituents here in WA. I think one of the biggest highlights since 4 July, when I became an independent, was travelling around the state of WA. It’s a massive state, we’ve been hitting twelve towns in twelve days, just me and my husband—we hired a car and made our way all the way from Geraldton to Kununurra, then to the Southwest. Hearing from West Aussies and understanding the issues that are unique to their locality was so important and eye-opening. I think it’s such a privilege that as senators, we get to represent our beautiful states—and what better way to represent and understand our constituents than by asking them and listening! Something I’ve heard from them was that they have politicians coming to their towns, but they usually just speak at them and tell them what the solutions are to their problems, rather than actually just listening. Listening is so underrated these days in politics.
In your Australian Story episode, you said that while you were in Labor, you felt like they wanted you to “look like you, but sound like us” and that as someone of a minority background, you feel like you have to hold yourself to a higher standard. How do you deal with that pressure?
The pressure is insane—you constantly feel like there’s a magnifying glass over every action, every word, everything that you’re remotely associated with. The way I deal with it is by keeping a clear conscience and knowing that I’m doing what’s best for West Australians because I listen to them. Whether it’s through my social media platforms, meeting them when I’m door knocking, at forums, or at events when they come up and want to have a chat—as long as I can put my hand on my heart and say that whatever decision I’ve made is because West Australians and my constituents have asked me to, or expected me to. Also having listened to the experts, because as politicians, it shouldn’t be an issue or a sore point for us to admit that we’re not experts on every field under the sun. We are conduits: we listen to the experts, we make and help shape policies, which then get implemented and impact people’s lives. We’ve got to have that open discussion and open relationship with our constituents. So keeping a clear conscience and knowing that I’ve done my best is what keeps me going.
Crossing the floor was a hugely courageous thing to do, what was going through your mind as you were walking across the room?
For your readers and audience who don’t know why I crossed the floor, it was on the motion of recognising the State of Palestine, which as a Labor Party member for all the years that I had been involved in state and national conferences, it was in our party platform. For me, it was a no-brainer that we should support that, not on a conditional matter, because there are no conditions imposed or applied when it comes to our party platform. I thought I was doing what was right by rank and file members and union members who make up our Labor Party base.
When I crossed the floor because the Greens had put the motion in the Senate, I crossed the floor which means literally walking across and sitting opposite to the rest of my party. I knew that by doing that I could be expelled [from the Labor Party], but for me, and like many people out there who had seen this genocide live-streamed on their phones, who have had enough of the killing, who wanted our government to be more bold and brave and call it out for what it is—the least symbolic thing we could do was recognise the State of Palestine. If places like Ireland and Finland and Spain could recognise the State of Palestine, why couldn’t we, as a middle power, as a nation that prides itself as a champion of human rights? So yeah, there were so many things going on in my head. Making that decision, it wasn’t easy. But I knew that I needed to look myself in the mirror and be able to say wholeheartedly that I voted for principles.
I voted with my conscience, even if that meant that I would end up being expelled, which didn’t happen. I got suspended and then indefinitely suspended, which you could say was me being put into indefinite purgatory, where it’s like I’m neither inside nor am I kicked out of the tent, so it’s just this weird limbo state. And then by the end of the next week, 4 July, that’s when I decided that no, I have to pull the pin and leave the party.
You’ve often used the phrase “nothing about us, without us”. When you’re representing such a huge state, how do you ensure that you’re representing everyone, including those who may feel disaffected by politics?
WA is massive and I’m not naïve to the fact that each region has its own challenges and demands. So whether it’s talking to farmers, or talking to miners, or talking to young people, who would’ve literally attended my community forums straight after school to just have a chat and tell me about how they think the AUKUS deal isn’t a great use of taxpayer dollars—that these submarines are not going to help us. We need modern warfare. We need investment and cybersecurity. We need our own sovereign satellite system. We need to put our national interest first when it comes to our foreign policy—and you can’t do that if you’re just pandering to your allies. So how do I go about it? It’s meeting people where they’re at. It’s ensuring that when I have round table meetings, when I have community forums, when I have mobile offices—that I extend the invitation to anyone. Whether you like me or not, I’m here as an elected official, as somebody who can be your voice in Canberra, somebody who is not afraid to call it out if there are injustices that are taking place, whether it’s in the workplace, or within Parliament House.
On social media, I’ve been putting up videos, asking people: what do you want us to tackle first, what do you want me to speak about in the Senate chamber? I especially don’t want young people to feel disengaged or feel like politics is not a space for them, because we are the future of Australian politics. So whether it’s at schools that I visit or university grounds, I’m telling people to have faith in themselves; get involved. Your representatives, your ministers: if they are not doing their due diligence and reaching out to you to ensure that your voices are heard as a body—as an organisation who have links, who have a wealth of knowledge and experience, you need to put submissions forward. You need to engage with these ministers and say hey, you can’t be making decisions about us, without us, because that’s not how it works. These policies aren’t going to impact you. It’s going to impact the specific group or the cohort that’s going to be directly impacted by it. Especially with the social media ban, I really want to have an open discussion about what young people think about that. The government’s still in the consultation phase, but we need to hear from those young people who’re going to face the brunt of it and have that access cut or monitored.
Senator Payman addressed Parliament on 11 September to comment on the housing crisis, the proposed social media ban for children, and cuts to WA’s share of goods and services tax revenue. Her speech which opened with “To the sigmas of Australia, I say that this goofy ahh government have been capping” made global news for its use of Gen Alpha vernacular.
What was the story behind the “skibidi” speech? How’d you come up with that?
I’ve got a policy advisor, his name is Ezra, he’s a 21-year-old and we sort of sat down and were just brainstorming and workshopping. And I was like: how do we get young people to turn on their screens and watch parliament and watch what’s happening in the Senate—while talking about the social media ban, while talking about cost of living and the housing crisis? And so we workshopped a skeleton of the key messages I wanted to put out there. And he was like, “why don’t we do it in Gen Alpha and Gen Z terminology?” And I was like, huh, I do hear my 20-year-old brother constantly saying “no cap bro”—and I’m like, “what is cap?” So he introduced me to this new world, which was incredible. And I was like, you know what? We’ll give it a crack. It might not turn out great, and it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but to those who understood it, they’re like, “we love it”. We’ve hit 20 million views and six million likes and we’re getting emails from Scotland, the UK, places in the US, even Kai Cenat reacted to the video. I was like, this is insane. I was not expecting this at all. And then there are grandparents writing to me as well, saying “I just bonded with my grandson while he was translating your skibidi speech and I think it was amazing that you were able to connect with the younger generation”. And I thought, well, they need to know that there’s a space and place for them in our parliament. And it was never done in history: about 25 new phrases were put into Hansard [the parliamentary transcripts]. That’s bizarre.
Did you expect it would ever get so huge when you were writing it?
I was like maybe the ABC might pick it up, maybe The Guardian might find it funny. But yeah, when we started getting into national traction, I was like, well, this is getting a bit crazy.
Do you think your time in youth politics has influenced the way you carry yourself in Parliament now?
I think so. It definitely gives you a different perspective. Obviously nothing prepares you for Parliament House and the real world of politics, but it definitely helps establish those key soft skill sets: like the way you delegate, the way you work as a team, your negotiation skills, the way you sell yourself or sell an idea, debating skills. I would definitely say that organisation and campaigning is something that student politics really taught me. I was the President of the UWA Muslim Student Association for two years, so I was heavily involved with the different organisations within the Guild, especially when it came to O-Day or the various festivals throughout the year. It gives you a glimpse of what it means, even running elections—how do you ensure that the key messages that your party or the organisation you’re part of are communicated? How is it marketed? So yeah, to all your audience: get involved—not just in student politics, but any level of unique club activity, because I think it gives you a new perspective and develops key skill sets that you wouldn’t otherwise get just by going to lectures and tutorials.
If you were made Prime Minister right now, what would be your first priority?
I’d do anything to fix the housing crisis. I’d actually just listen to people and say alright, something needs to be done and [I would] make that bold move of addressing negative gearing and capital gains tax discount. Housing affordability needs to be on the agenda and a priority. We need to think about 20 years down the track—will our young people be able to own their own home, or is that a very distant dream?
What will Australia’s Voice promise for young people and students?
We’re still in the process of finalising our party platform, but I have committed to listening to young people. We’ve got something called a Youth Caucus, where we hosted a youth forum before the party was launched. We are going to create a safe space where young people can raise ideas—there is no such thing as a silly idea. I’ve had a few people send draft speeches to me, with key points and they’re like, “can you read this out in the Senate?” Some of them are really practical things, from increasing internet speeds—because who likes it when you’re streaming and your internet’s lagging because the previous government opted for copper wires instead of fibre, and so now we’re just stuck with really slow internet. Or for example when it comes to HECS debts—I’ve been hearing from young people stressing about owning their own home or being able to afford rent, while they’ve got this massive debt that’s just sitting there and accruing interest every single year. I think any opportunity that young people have to be able to phrase a new idea—I totally welcome it. And you know that’s what I’m here for, to be their authentic, unfiltered voice, even if that means that it’s going to be in “skibidi” terms.
What broader goals do you hope to achieve with Australia’s Voice?
With Australia’s Voice, we hope to be bold but practical. What we’ve been hearing from Australians is firstly, that they feel like the two-party duopoly are two sides of the same coin. Whether it’s Labor or Liberal, they are so disenfranchised—young people in particular. You can’t be what you can’t see, and you don’t really see many young people gravitating towards those major parties because they don’t really have much to offer to young people. Some of those young people, not just young people but Australians, have said that the Greens sometimes go way too far when there’s some progressive legislation that’s up for debate. The Greens, they say, “it’s our way or the highway”, like there is no middle ground.
So Australia’s Voice hopes to be that middle ground where we’re bold and brave enough to call out things and hold the government to account, but we’re also practical and pragmatic. We want to get things done. We don’t want things to just sit on the back burner and prompt the Prime Minister to threaten us with a double dissolution. We want action where it’s due. So with Australia’s Voice, whether it’s looking at foreign policy or domestic policy, we want to see Australia with its own independent way of thinking, with its own agenda: things that will impact our lives—and we want that to be prioritised when it comes to real things that need to be done, for example to address the price gouging of supermarkets. We want to be able to continue advocating for the rights of all Australians, whether that’s seeking justice through the justice system, or whether that’s employment, whether that’s tenancy laws that need to be looked at. It’s a pretty big agenda. But we are very pumped to see when the Prime Minister is going to call the election and I can’t wait to meet all the other Australians around the country. I know I have focused so much on WA, obviously because I’m from WA, but it would also be interesting to hear what, for example, Victorian and New South Wales, or people in Queensland have got to say.
What advice do you have for students and student groups who would like to see political change?
Get involved! Don’t wait for an invite. Insert yourself where you think it’s necessary, whether that’s a conference that you’re interested in. Recently, there was the IPAN [Independent and Peaceful Australia Network] conference and we had a few young people who were still at university attend and write to the ministers. Whether you’re part of an organisation or a body or not: seek donations to be able to go to Canberra during [parliament] sitting. See things in action, but also learn the fine art of lobbying, which basically would require you to have negotiating conversations to really hold your ministers and MP’s to account. Keep building your tool kit of, not just knowledge of the political system, but ways of cutting through and getting your messages across: whether it’s layering your campaigns through social media, through writing letters to ministers and saying, hey, these are our asks, we would love to have a meeting. Also, petitions go a long way. We’ve realised the amount of petitions that get tabled and they actually indicate to the minister there’s a massive momentum behind this particular policy area that young people may be interested in. I know in South Australia, they recently had a massive convention with parents and young people to talk about the social media ban. I don’t know if they’re going to extend that to WA but I’d love to see a huge turn out from WA for young people to be able to raise their concerns or their support. Again, I’m not telling young people how they should be thinking, like if you think a social media ban is great, well then good for you.
From your experience, is there anything specific that you’d like to see change about the way that the Australian political system currently works?
Yes. There’s this thing called ‘take note’, which is a very technical example, but it takes place straight after Question Time and it’s half an hour that could actually be utilised for proper debating, but it’s just taking note of answers that were given during Question Time. So it’s just this little shit slinging contest where it’s just throwing insults and criticising the other side, back and forth—and it’s just like, why are we doing this again? It’s very performative. It’s theatrical, but it’s not really achieving much—we could be using that time to debate. There are times when time is allocated to a specific bill to be debated, but then the filibustering of either side, with the major parties just using up time and not giving that time to the crossbench who actually have legitimate questions or legitimate concerns. Many of your readers may have watched Question Time and there are real questions, but the ministers just never answer it. When I was a Labor Senator, I would hear David Pocock [Independent Senator for ACT] pose a question during Question Time and I’d think, yeah, that’s a pretty legit question, the dude’s got a point. But then our ministers would just deflect and just not answer the question, to the point where David Pocock would have to get out multiple times on a point of order and say, “can the Minister be relevant with answering my question”. The politicisation of certain things in that chamber, I’m like, we’re wasting a lot of time here—we’re only here for like 20 weeks of the year, so we haven’t got a lot of time.
Are you optimistic about the future of how Parliament runs?
It’s sort of a work in progress in terms of positive things happening. The Respect at Work and the Jenkins Report—we’re starting to see tangible changes be implemented. For example, back in the day, they used to sit until 10/11pm, but nowadays, we’ve got an 8pm finish, or the latest it would go to would be 9, unless there’s arrangements made, so that there’s family friendly hours. So I think there are positives, it just requires a lot of work. For example, even with the National Anti-Corruption Commission, there was an independent who raised these issues back in the Morrison government and only once the Labor Party was elected were they able to implement the establishment of the National Anti-Corruption Commission. So sometimes ideas are brought up by the crossbench, but they’re just shelved until there’s political will for the government of the day to take it off the shelf and say, you know what, there’s a pretty decent policy, we should implement it.
Do you have any favourite memories from your time at UWA?
There was a time when Reid Library did not have a café, so it was like a little pop-up café outside where the staircase is. The university admin were going to shut the pop-up café because, “oh my god, there’s too many cafés”. And so because we built such a good rapport with the barista and the people at the counter at this little pop-up café, my friend and I petitioned and we collected about 1,200 signatures from students who were regulars at Reid Library and we presented it to the vice-chancellor and we’re like: you can’t shut them down. So they ended up doing a whole design of installing the café on the ground floor of Reid Library. So when I think about it, students do have the power. You just need to learn how to organise, come together and find ways of lobbying your VCs at the administration properly.
Finally, a couple of fun questions: favourite movie and favourite song?
Wow, that’s hard. Favourite movie, well, it’s tough, but Pirates of the Caribbean—I could watch that on repeat—like the whole entire series. Favourite song…oof…so many. I do like The Kid LAROI as an artist, but I also like Meghan Trainor, so it’s tough. I think Meghan Trainor’s Dear Future Husband. Gosh, I make my husband listen to that all the time. He probably hates it right now.
And favourite place to visit in Perth?
The glow-in-the-dark mini golf in Freo. I forget what it’s called. I think that was one of the first places that my husband took me on a little date night. It was cute. I think it’s called Glowing Rooms. It’s the bomb.